Episode 4 - Work
Bounded Energy
Episode 3 Work
SPEAKERS
Hannah, Katya
Katya
Hannah when you said 'meet at 5', I thought that was like a... you know 'I’ll message around 5 and... we can agree' but you were here and i was just sitting on the sofa in my underwear... (laughs)
Hannah
Oh, that is!... (laughs). To be fair -that's usually what I mean when I say that! Yeah, but then I was just here at five like, I'm ready!
Katya
How did your MRI go? Oh no! I do this at work as well, whenever I know someone's had a medical appointment, I'm always like, how was it? Whenever someone says, I have to go to the doctor's. I'm just like, why? But I can't ask that.
Hannah
I do that!! And I say - Oh, I hope it goes well. And I'm like... what? (laughing)
Katya
Once I told my friend at work that I had to get to a doctor's appointment. And he was just like, how come? And I was like, Oh, just like a swab, a swab test, like a cervical swab. And he was just like, what's that? (laughs) And I said Ask your wife. Because all of our conversations are recorded. I really don't want to say vagina on the work Zoom call. I'm pretty sure that would flag.
Katya
(both laugh) Jingle plays: 'I'm having a good day! (minute/hour/week). What to do & how to be with the beans given to me, me & my bounded energy. -sigh-
Hannah
Medical disclaimer: we are not doctors and we are not giving medical advice. If you are struggling with any of the issues discussed in the podcast, please seek professional help.
Katya
Hello!
Katya
Hi! Good see you.
Katya
How are you?
Hannah
Oh, I'm okay. I had a long working day yesterday. So yeah, all evening. I just had a really big, big headache. So hence I was texting you very short replies because concentrating on the screen was just kind of making my head throb.
Katya
Oh, yeah, did we message yesterday? only briefly. only briefly.
Hannah
Yeah, you sent me loads of stuff with like, really exciting information. And then I just could only respond with a couple of phrases and I wanted to say more. But yeah...
Katya
Honestly, it's fine. I had. Oh, yeah. So I’m not sure if I should do this now but this podcast is the thing that's getting me through everything at the moment. This week's been kind of rubbish and I had really sad moment the other day and I sat and cried on the sofa. And then I played our trailer. And it just made me smile!
Hannah
Yeah. I listened to our trailer too on my way into work the other day, and it made me feel a lot better.
Katya
But yesterday, I don't know if you've had this but I haven't had it in a while. I'd had a normal working day. And then at five o'clock probably after I'd sent you all those enthusiastic messages, I had a fatigue attack. I basically lost speech and couldn't stand. I was signing to Matty to basically explain, like, can't speak / exhausted. And just the fact that it suddenly came over me and I went from walking around the flat cooking and talking to myself to just lying on the sofa stunned. And I had dinner at six and then at, 6.15 I literally went from the sofa to my bed. I didn't even brush my teeth. And yeah, and I woke up this morning feeling obviously much better because I'm speaking but just feeling rough. Have you ever had anything like that?
Hannah
yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like you just hit a brick wall very suddenly. Yeah, and there is no warning, and then you're just totally taken out. It's literally like, I don't know, some invisible force has just rugby tackled you to the sofa. So then you're just there, like Oh, shit.
Hannah
I really get the difficulty with trying to explain it, it feels like it's really hard to put words to it. Yeah, I mean, did you have anything accompany it like did your breathing or did your heart rate go weird?
Katya
Suddenly breathing got worse than normal. Yeah, I had heart palpitations, but I have them fairly frequently. So lately, I guess this is weird, I just been haunted by the thought that I might suddenly die before the podcast comes out.
Hannah
oohhh!
Katya
I've gone from like, when my illness was really bad feeling like, well, you know, maybe I'll die. And that will be okay. And now, I'm terrified that I will die before the podcast is done and out there! You know, just like, you'll see I added, an episode idea like long COVID and my body because I do want to talk about like, this sudden feeling I have at the moment of just not being able to trust my body.
Hannah
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Hannah
The complete loss of speech. That sounds scary. I haven't... I have my brain fog moments where I cannot get my words out. But then I'll just I'll take a step back, and then try to go at the point at a different angle and find the words I need. But yeah, I haven't been in a place like that, where I've haven't been able to kind of really communicate at all.
Katya
I think. I think it's my lungs, because my voice has always been my Achilles heel. I had that time years ago, I lost it. I lost my voice for 12 weeks. So, I know that definitely a part of my body that doesn't...
Hannah
I was speaking to a lady the other day who has long COVID and she was saying, it's like all of your physical vulnerabilities... long COVID Like brings to the fore. So maybe that is what it does. And yeah, it's like your voice is the first thing that goes
Katya
so true. Anyway! How was your weekend?
Hannah
Um, yeah, it was okay. All in all, I can't complain too much. Cuz I sort of I made it through the week without too much upset. I did a full, very intense working day on Wednesday. And then Thursday, I was working from home. But over the day, I started to just get more and more scatty. So yeah, for one thing, I just I started to feel more and more lightheaded over the day a little bit like I had a balloon inflating inside my head.
Katya
Yeah, that's a great simile. Yeah, it is. Like that, isn't it? Because it's the airiness
Hannah
yeah, it's like airiness. But then also this kind of pressure at the same time inside my head. And then like............ ugh I'm trying to find the words to say it cuz yeah, my words haven't been that great this week.
Katya
I feel like we shouldn't be doing a podcast, I feel like we should be doing some kind of illustrated cartoon on the internet! I meant to tell you, when I was recording one of my little video intros, I was like, Hi........... And I meant to say, Hi, I'm Katya. But I kept forgetting my name. I'd be like, who am I? Who am I again? What am I doing? (both laugh)
Hannah
- That's it! Okay. The point I was trying to make was, I would basically be like, oh, right, I need to do this task. So I'd open a window, or I'd get my phone out. And then I kept losing track of the tasks I meant to be doing. And I was kind of flitting between different jobs feeling really , Oh, I just felt a bit lost, really scattered. And after a while, I was like, right, I just, I need to call it a day. So I stopped the day early.
Katya
I just remembered something I wanted to tell you. So Friday, I had the same thing. I was really scattered my brain was like poof!, and we have this new change we want to do at work that basically involves a really monotonous activity that could technically be automated. But we had agreed that I would do the monotonous repetitive task. And I had all these people being like, oh, I'm so sorry that we can't get this automated in time. It was basically pressing copy and paste 500 times, selecting, copy, paste, , select Copy, Paste. Anyway, my colelague's like, oh, yeah, so sorry, you have to do this. But I was like, Dude, this kind of mindless work is basically like the only thing I can do. Please don't ask me to actually think I can't. I had my Taylor Swift playlist ready to gom my cup of tea. I was just like, yeah, ... (sarcastic tone) It's gonna take five hours. Oh, man. (both laughing)
Katya
There was something I wanted to say before we start Hannah. Yeah. So I've been putting a toe into the world of social media. And I've been learning a lot about other people's experiences of Long COVID which is really insightful. And something I had thought at the beginning when I kind of first got sick was: this is really bad for me, but somewhere out there, there's a ballerina who just got given a solo, who now has long COVID ... orthe saxophonist who has long COVID and can no longer play. So I guess I've become very conscious that Hannah and I are going to be talking about our personal experiences with long COVID and how they've affected our work. But we're aware that many people have just had to stop work completely.
Hannah
Yeah, yeah.
Katya
Should we talk about work?
Hannah
Yeah.
Katya
So I guess the first question we wanted to touch on was, what do you do professionally? And how has this been affected by long COVID?
Hannah
I am a qualified speech and language therapist. So I was working in a hospital when the pandemic struck, working on the front line with patients with communication and swallowing impairments who were in hospital, mostly on the acute stroke unit. But some of my colleagues were concentrated much more in respiratory wards and ICU.
Katya
It's so weird, but I think that we never spoke about it. I actually forget that you worked on the frontlines at the start of the pandemic.
Hannah
Yeah, I mean, I was all kitted up and seeing patients with COVID. But I mean, also seeing patients who were COVID negative, and then turned out the next day after I'd seen them to be COVID Positive.
Katya
(joking) Can i look in your mouth ?gain. (laughs)
Hannah
Yes. cough on me again, please! (laughs) I mean, that's, you know, that's what the my work was. A lot of it was doing swallowing assessments. So you are very close to people's mouths. It's, it's not an ideal job to have when there's a... what's it called? You know, the type of virus that's borne on air.
Katya
airborne?
Hannah
Yeah, it's not the ideal job to have when there's an airborne virus going around.
Katya
It's like the modern equivalent of you know, those women who used to balance plates on their heads while men threw knives at them. Just the worst possible place to me, yeah, like if you get out of this alive. It's a miracle. (both laugh),
Hannah
so I mean, obviously, all of my colleagues, we all got COVID at some point, you know. Not only was I probably exposed to a lot of the infection, the type of job I did, it was very, very intense, in terms of it was client facing, and I would be seeing patients and working kind of, in a very social job. It was high stress. Working overtime was quite normal for me. And I was on my feet majority of the day as well. Yeah. So, you know, it always was a tiring job. But you kind of when you're healthy, you have that, that physical and emotional resilience.
Hannah
But what I found was, as you know, my health was struggling, suddenly, the things like that face to face social interaction, walking between wards, doing my assessment standing up at a patient's bedside, all of that was just way more tiring than it used to be. And not only that, I just couldn't bounce back from it. Whereas before I would come home, and I would rest and, and kind of be ready the next day to do it all over again. I just didn't have that anymore. So it was kind of just cumulatively becoming harder and harder and harder. And I really felt every day. Like I was waking up exhausted. And then I was just walking through water. Yeah. And I think I was in denial about that for a long time. . And just thinking it will pass it will pass. Just keep pushing, keep pushing. And I think I was just digging myself into a deeper, deeper hole, really.
Hannah
Part of what was pushing me to really try to keep going even though I was feeling really, really rough most of the time was a sense of duty, and a certain feeling of guilt. Because if any of us in my team were sick, it just made everyone else's day that bit harder because we were so we were so understaffed anyway yeah, it was just that thing of like, Oh, if I don't turn up I just know that my colleagues going to have an even more shit time. . And then also me being off meant the less patients would be seen and when you're working in acute hospital, you're working with you know, very ill patients whose risks to their well being are increased the longer that they're not seen by our team. So yeah,
Katya
I can completely relate to that from when I was a school teacher. Yeah. And we just didn't have enough staff.
Hannah
Yeah, yeah, definitely. The days that I took off because I really was too ill, I would get up in the morning and I would be struggling to dress myself, I'd just be thinking like I can't do today. I would then take the day off sick, but then just spend the whole time feeling really anxious and really sad and really guilty. Yeah. And then also then being worried about like, right, I need to be better for tomorrow.
Katya
I can't believe we've never spoken about this before. Because I have the same thing. It's like you're too sick to work. But you are then haunted by that despicable voice in your head. That's like, maybe you could have done it. What must they think of you? They probably don't believe you. Yes. I completely get that. That.
Hannah
Yeah. Yeah. And that, like you said, they don't believe you. I would often have that fear that my colleagues would assume I was just skiving off, because I couldn't be arsed. So yeah, there is that feeling of judgement, whether it's real or imagined...
Katya
It's always imagined. It's never real. because it comes from your head! (both laugh)
Katya
(Katya bursts out laughing as Hannah goes to speak) Sorry I had just had this image of you! I don't know why. Just sending a message like, Guys, I'm sorry. I'm sick. And then you're just standing outside the Thorpe Park gates like waiting to ride the roller coaster!!! It's just completely Yeah, completely insane. But yeah, that's what your crazy mind does to you.
Hannah
Oh, definitely. So yeah, I mean, it's funny because when I think back to working during the pandemic in hospital, I immediately feel anxious just talking about it. Just because it was such a shit time, obviously, for the patients and seeing the patients suffering, seeing people die. You know, a lot of end of life situations. And you know, all of that takes its toll. But then for me, it was compounded with my own anxiety about my own health and being well enough to do it and handle it. So yeah, it was a bit of a double whammy. I can feel I'm like, got that churning feeling in my tummy just speaking about it!!!
Katya
Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen it myself.
Katya
I had never really understood the trauma that health professionals experienced during COVID. Which is strange, because one of my closest friends is an intensive care nurse who was at King's Hospital London all through the pandemic. And her stories were haunting. But I watched a film recently, I can't remember what it's called... It's about the pandemic and the disaster that happened in care homes... It's with that beautiful actor who does the accents for really, really talented women. It's called 'Help'. I watched this amazing film called help. Jody Comer plays a carer and she has this one scene that is just referred to as the 'night shift from hell'. She's all alone, because everyone's off sick. And she is working by herself through the night to basically manage a dying man. And also look after all of the other patients and something about the intensity of the scene... it just, I really recommend everyone who is not a health professional who didn't live through that part of the pandemic to watch that
Katya
Actually. I don't know, you might find it super triggering. I recommended it to my friend who's the nurse. And like, almost as soon as I said it, I thought, Ah, what's wrong with you Katya??? I'm pretty sure that's the last thing she wants to see since she basically lived it!!! Like she was that film. For.. quite a while I don't think she wants to watch it.
Hannah
Yeah, I do think she needs more insight. (both laughing)
Katya
Yeah, I remember during my 12 weeks of losing my voice, (whoever's listening, I once lost my voice for 12 weeks, which was now the second darkest period of my life). But I remember being told by someone to drink lemon tea, and I feel like I did that to my friend when I told her to watch Help! (both laugh).
Katya
Sorry Hannah - You're explaining how the period of work was terrible, but even harder because you yourself were physically ill. Yeah. And had all of the complications of that. ,
Hannah
Yeah. But you know, I eventually, I kind of reached a breaking point. I was signed off work by the GP for six weeks. Actually, no, I think it was three weeks to begin with. I basically got on the phone to the doctor and he was like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna sign you off work for three weeks, and I just burst into tears. Because it was like such a relief. Yeah. To have someone say, okay, you don't have to go to work for three weeks. I was just sobbing down the phone. I was just like..! Thank you!!!!
Katya
Yeah, I've been there!
Hannah
Yeah. And I then I was in a really dark place at that point. I mean, I, I think because work was my life. I think the idea of not being able to work, I then found that really, really difficult. Yeah, I mean, my mental health was rock bottom, like, I was feeling suicidal. Thankfully, I, because I had a chance to rest. I think, you know, my mental health then was given some space to kind of stabilize. And I was tipped off actually, by Chris, bless him. I think he was looking for other jobs for me, because we were talking about, right, I just, I think I need to, I need to find something else to do to earn money that's not going to be this demanding. Yeah. Whether that was being a speech therapist or not. But yeah, he was like, oh, there's yeah, there's this job at the university. So then, I could basically just transition into this job, which I'm in now, which is obviously still very challenging.
Hannah
Yeah, so I'm a lecturer. So I work full time, a lot of it is working from home, but then I go into campus in order to teach. At the minute, the teaching I dot would be, you know, up to six hours of teaching in a day. But...
Katya
wow,
Hannah
I'm only I'm only doing that about twice a week at the minute.
Katya
(laughs!) Geez!! I mean, it's like...I'd be like, if I sit down on a chair, you guys will come really close. And I will whisper what I need you to retain. (both laugh) I imagine a lot of flip learning. Hey, guys read this and tell me what you think? ,
Hannah
well, I think, you know, I feel so fortunate that my condition is on the milder end of the scale, in that I can actually hold down a full time job and a full time job that does require some intense days of face to face interaction. But basically, my story is because of long COVID, It was one of the catalysts that kind of pushed me to find a different job. And it was a job that I knew I always wanted. But having long COVID was basically the push to be like, Okay, actually, I'm going to have a go at transitioning to this job much earlier in my career than I thought I would.
Hannah
And yeah, I'm loving the job, the work is amazing. It's just that constant anxiety that I'm not going to be well enough to keep maintaining it. Yeah, because it is difficult. And I have to sacrifice a lot outside of work in order that I can be healthy for work, it does feel like a lot of my life is me conserving my energy so that I can do my hours. So there is always that fear that my health isn't in a secure place that I can trust that I'm always going to be well enough to keep that going. And when I have a crash, and I have to take some time off work that really makes me feel more anxious, where I'm like, Oh, crap, what if I can't do this?
Katya
Yeah I have regular thoughts of just getting a job in a shop, or something where it would be easier to take a day off, or just something where I wasn't going to become part of a project. And then I think for me, one of the things with work that just tortures me is I get an enormous sense of self esteem. Because I'm good at my job. I'm really organized. I feel like people trust me at work. And I feel like they think that if I say I'll do something, I actually will do it. And they think that because I that's how I genuinely am. Yeah. So when my health means that I suddenly disappear from a project for six weeks. . Or cancel a training session for the fifth time in a row or ... Yeah, I just have this huge sense of humiliation and shame.
Katya
I had a terrible experience recently. The experience wasn't terrible. It was a lovely experience. But my brain... I had taken four weeks off work. And I had missed my colleagues enormously from taking so much time off work and they were having a social, they were going to the pub and then for dinner, and I thought I can do this - I can attend. And so I spent the whole day lying down. And then I went to the pub. And I walked in. And I was really happy to see everyone I really was. But then I suddenly realized that I had 12 people to say hello to. And I was standing up, and it was really loud. And after 20 minutes of standing in the pub, my heart was going so fast. I was struggling to breathe. And I said, , I'm gonna have to go now. But it was so lovely to see you. and I left, and I got in the cab home. And I felt so low, Hannah, I had all these thoughts of like, you know, they must think that I'm crazy or really strange, or that I just went there for attention? Or why would you? Why would you go somewhere for half an hour and then leave? Like, what's the point in that? I don't know what the point of that story was...
Hannah
I guess it's about not not just dealing with feeling really physically ill. But there's all of those other thoughts that come with it, isn't it like you said, you got in the cab, and then you felt that people would just think you were really strange, or definitely the one I resonate with is they're going to think I'm just wanting attention. That is I yeah, I get that feeling all the time. Yeah, it's horrible.
Katya
I've been listening to a lot of Brene Brown at the moment. She's a shame researcher. She talks about Shame Gremlins and Shame Gremlins are the the hideous, like the disgusting rat inside of you that says things to you like that. It'll come up and say, you're just doing this for attention. They all think that you're perfectly fine. And they saw you're going Thorpe Park the other day..
Hannah
Yeah, yeah. I have that feeling of worrying that people think you're faking it. It's just it really gets in your head.
Katya
It's like I know! I already feel like I'm hallucinating half time. I need you to tell me that this shit is real. Don't add to my confusion. Oh, imagine being like, I think I'm really ill. But I don't know if like, anything is real. You really don't someone next to you to be like, Yeah, I don't know if it's real, either. I don't believe you. You want itto be like, This is real. Yeah. And you're doing your best,
Hannah
Oh, God, it'd be so nice. To hear that.
Katya
Sorry Hannah you were saying what you do and how it's changed.
Hannah
I would say thatfor me managing long COVID and working at the same time is still very much a learning process for me. Like, I really don't feel like I can sit here and be like, I've got the answers. And I figured out the formula, because
Katya
But Hannah (joking) that's why people are here! (both laughing)
Hannah
Oh, I'm sorry to let every now but yeah, I'm still trying to work this out. Because I am a type A personality. And no matter how much I tell myself, I'm going to pace myself, and I'm going to rest, I'm going to be sensible, and I'm not gonna volunteer for things that I won't be able to do later on. That is really hard for me to maintain that. It's like this kind of busy part of my brain and the part of my brain that gets big dopamine hits off doing stuff and doing things well and working with my team and volunteering for stuff and being capable. And all of that stuff is what makes me feel good. So when I'm having a good day, I'm like, whoo, give me that. And I'm got all these ideas for work. And I'm starting projects and yeah, I find it really hard to control that side of my personality. And I get it wrong all the time. and then have to reassess what I've planned.
Katya
Because you're like, Hey, guys, I'll lead this. I I want to start a new team. And I want to take them on a trip. (both laughing) And then it's like, oh, yeah...
Hannah
(laughing) yeah and then I'm having to scale back or be like, Oh, actually, I can't I don't actually think I can do this. after all. I said that on a day where I was really enthusiastic and really unrealistic about my health.
Katya
Yeah, I find that really hard too. I can relate to all of that. I work in finance. And compared to you, I'm super lucky and I have the best job you could possibly have to have for long COVID Because it's sitting down, and it's a desk job. And it's not an ideal job for brain fog. But it's definitely like an ideal job for sitting down. And yeah, I guess I just wanted to say that I relate to your drive to contribute, because... (get's a bit lost :( ) I'm trying to think of what do I want to say? I wanted to talk about what I do and how it's been affected by long COVID.
Hannah
Yeah, go for it. Yeah,
Katya
yeah, okay. I'm sorry. I feel like a bit scatty. But no, don't worry, I'm sure I can edit this.
Hannah
(laughing) It's fine.
Katya
Can you just say, what do you do professionally? And how's it been affected? Then I can I can move it in? Yeah,
Hannah
(in a very professional, composed voice that does not match the prior laughing tone) Sure. So Katya, what do you do professionally and how has it been affected by long covid?
Katya
(laughing) There's no way I can use that cut!!! It's fine. No, the thing I really wanted to say is, I feel like I tricked my team into hiring me. Because I got hired in December 2021. And so from December 2021 to May, I was working from home because it was during the pandemic, and everyone was working from home. So they kind of never really saw me because December 2021, to May 21, I was new to the team. But I was also completely new to the field in which I work. So I didn't know anything, all of my jobs were super basic. Then by the time we got to June, and everything was opening up, and people were going back into the office around June, July 2021. I was already sick. So , I kind of feel like my team don't actually know, they don't know what I was like before COVID.
Katya
I've always done a lot of work from home, even at my best. So in terms of how COVID has changed how I work, for me, it hasn't because, I was pretty much always sick. But I think that I kind of struggle with is I had, like you said, that sense of I really want to impress, I want to say yes to everything. I want to do everything. And I've had this sign on my computer screen this last few months that says don't volunteer, just to be like, I know, this is your personality type But it's just like, I need to, I kind of just need to keep my job at the moment... I don't know what I'm saying on. Should we go on to the next question.
Hannah
No, it's know what you're saying. It makes sense. I think there's that battle between ambition. And then then also, like deliberately having to hold back your ambition.
Katya
Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
Hannah
And then there's that thing of trying to manage what your colleagues think of you. And that's really hard, particularly when you're early in a job where you feel like you're still building your reputation. And you haven't got that long history where people can be like, Oh, I know. I know, Katya has always been great. And she's going through an illness right now that's changed her ability to work to her best. Yes, it's like people don't know what your best can be. Because like, they haven't known you before COVID.
Katya
And I also feel like the thing I'm good at is I'm a good connector. I hadn't realized that I was sociable until I got long COVID. My old job. I was an assistant and I was the go between between my boss and the rest of the team. And so I knew everybody, and I knew everyone's names. And I, I had a network, man, it helped me so much in my job. And so I've gone to this new job with that same attitude. So like, January to May when I was hired, and I was myself, I was building a network. I was making connections, making friends. Yeah. And then as I started getting sick, things were just constantly interrupted. So I have people at work, who will have had two months in a row of regular coffee with me, and then I'll have ghosted them. And I also have this sense of loss, because working in the city, a huge thing is Thursday drinks. On Thursday, you go over the road to the pub, and you have a drink and a chat. And on the days when I could go into work, you know, I'd come out and I'd almost want to run to the tube, so that I didn't have to walk by all of the people having just a normal after work drink, so yeah...
Katya
yeah, yeah.
Hannah
One of my parents' really close friends has long COVID, which he is really close to recovering from now. But he's in his, I assume he's in his 50s. But he was saying to me, like, Oh, I think I'm at the age now where it's been easier for me to slow down at work. Whereas, yeah, you're at that young age where, you know, you're building your career. And, like, Yeah, it's true. I think there's a part of me that feels like, , I'm at that age where, I want to be advancing. And I want promotions, I want to opportunities and I feel like, I mean, I know, I've got many, many years ahead of me to build my career. But this is usually the time where people are kind of really putting their careers at, you know, front and center, you know, I don't have kids yet, I don't have...
Katya
(joking) I mean you know, you haven't really got anything going for you Hannah! You're not very clever. Kind of boring. (both laugh)
Katya
I have the same thing. Right. And I'm, it's two things. Firstly, it's watching opportunities go past me. Yeah. But also something that's huge in my company is promotion. And it's where we're coming up to kind of the time where you have promotion, compensation talks. And I feel enormously lucky to have this job. I feel so so grateful. Like, I feel like they are doing me a favor. So how do you ask someone for a pay rise? When you already kind of view your employment as charity? Like, I know, that sounds really dark, and like, how am I gonna stand there and be like, I know, I took a month off. I know, I've taken two months off this year. But can I please...
Hannah
oh, man,
Hannah
that's galling! But yeah, I'm still gonna do it. Because I'm... (laughing)
Hannah
(Both laugh) You should! You should!
Katya
Do you want to move on to telling work about long COVID?
Hannah
Yeah, in terms of telling work about long COVID - I didn't, when I changed job. You know, partly because of my health issues. I didn't mention my long COVID during the interview process, and I wasn’t asked about it. I thought, No, I'm gonna give this a go. I'm pretty sure that I can manage full time hours, with the reduced activity levels of this job.
Katya
(joking) And like, I guess also Hannah, if you cut out every other part of your life that brings you joy, weyoumight be able to do it.
Hannah
(laughing) I'm willing to sacrifice my health and happiness to to do this. So...
Katya
I need to eat! So yeah! I guess I can do it! (both laugh)
Hannah
So, yeah, I actually didn't mention my long COVID until I had a conversation with occupational health as part of the routine thing of joining the work place.
Katya
That's really good! So when you joined, you had a conversation with OH just default?
Hannah
Um, it was kind of mentioned as something I can do. Yeah, I don't think it was like, Oh, everyone has to see Occ Health, but it was definitely something that was introduced and raised during my induction. So it was very easy for me to get that going. And yeah, so then, when the health report was then written, I got in touch with my manager and said, you know, FYI, I have long COVID at the minute, I'm feeling all right. And I'm managing my full time hours. But obviously, I'll let you know if anything changes. And I mean, you know, I've been with this job for over a year now. And I've managed to more or less keep working full time with certain adjustments.
Hannah
So it just means that Occ health have been there to kind of back me up and make me feel secure about Yeah, okay, I'm working full time hours. But those hours that I do can be flexible, and the days where I have to drive into work. I can make those shorter working days and work longer on my home days. I mean, I'm just really lucky that the workplace I've entered has got an easily accessible occupational health team that have been really supportive and my manager has been super kind. I feel really, really fortunate.
Hannah
But what about you, how have you communicated about work with ... So sorry, communicated, I always do this where I swap words around in a sentence.
Katya
(both laughing) You know what makes it worse is we both do it (mix up our words), but neither of us challenge it. So it's only when I'm reviewing and editing the podcast.
Hannah
I think that's why like, we don't pick it up in each other. Because I think when you're having a conversation, and you're in flow, as long as the message has got across, you don't really notice the grammar. Well, I mean, I don't, yeah, maybe it's my brain fog, but I don't notice it... I was just gonna say, That's why doing lectures is so exhausting, because I have to think really carefully about the words that I'm using to make sure that I'm accurate with everything. So I do think that's why the day afterwards, my brain is always a bit fried. But anyway, I interrupted...
Katya
I do a fair amount of training in my job. And I've been told that my training seems really natural, and it's great. But I have a script that I read word for word, really, including things like 'I think that', 'I would say', 'I just remembered'. So it seems natural. It's the same script, whoever's listening to this is gonna be like, 'Oh, my God, am I joining this call for you to just read something that you could have emailed???' But yeah, and luckily, I have two monitors here. So I just pull up the Microsoft Word document. And I literally read every single word. Anyway,
Hannah
You should be like, a script writer for like TV, because the number of things I watch where I'm like, that is the most unnatural conversation ever. You've like scripted naturalness into your training. (both laughing)
Katya
Yeah. And well, my long COVID breathing really helps because while I'm doing my (dramatic gasp) I move my eyes from left to right, so it looks like I'm thinking. (laughs)
Hannah
You're just catching your breath. (laughs)
Katya
I know exactly what I'm gonna say!!!
Katya
Yeah, so for me, my biggest mistake was in I started, I got sick, like around May, June, July, August. That was when my fatigue in 2021 was slowly sinking in and I didn't tell work. September, I was just completely disabled by this illness. I took as much annual leave as I could. And I returned to work after my annual leave. And all I was doing was logging on sitting at my chair, logging off and going to bed and just doing the bare minimum. And it was hell, because I hadn't told anyone at work. And then I think it might have been December 2021. I just couldn't do it anymore. Like I was thinking of quitting. And so I told my bosses. I can't remember which one I told first, but they were just like, oh, man, like, that sounds really tough. We should put you in touch with occupational health. And I've had an initial consultation, and they were just amazing. They offered me time off which I refused. Classic Katya. At the beginning, I was like, Nope, I don't want to do anything that would discomfort my team. But I had reduced hours and complete license to work from home, which just I remember, it's just this huge sense of relief. Oh, thank you. Thank Thank god. Yeah. But I haven't really told my team, right, I've only realized this sorry, fairly recently, actually.
Katya
But from kind of December 2021, I spoke to OH, about how I was doing and OH wrote very minimal letters to my managers. So I was pouring out my heart and soul to my OH nurse explaining how devastated I was at times and how much I was struggling. But my team just got 'Katya should work work seven hours' , 'Katya should work from home whenever she needs to,'
Katya
And so when I had this recent setback, I've been having a few questions from my team of things like, has this got anything to do with work? And I said to my manager, you know, I realized that my communication happens with OH, do you know what I'm living through? And she said, No. And I kind of realized that, because I live with this. I think that everyone knows, but actually, I haven't said these things to many people.
Katya
But recently, I've been telling people and kind of asking for help. And I have two colleagues who I'm extremely close with and during my time off the calls and WhatsApp messages... they were such a source of comfort. And during my return to work these last few weeks, because I haven't been able to go into the office, a girl who I love has just been booking in 15 minute daily catch ups, because when I was in the office, we'd normally go for tea.
Hannah
That's, lovely, yeah, that's really, really nice. Yeah, that resonates with me as well that thing of like, you think that oh, well, everyone kind of knows. Surely, I go on about it all the time! And then you realize that actually, you don't, actually people don't know. And yeah, I've been deliberately trying to tell more people - tell people I work with, be honest with my friends and family. I've been trying to be , kind of brutally honest about how I am. And it feels really uncomfortable for me to do it. But I know it's better in the long run for me to be honest with everyone.
Katya
Yeah, I have this constant battle with... They say you should bring your whole self to work. But you also have to be professional. Yeah. And so it's like, you say bring your whole self to work. But you can't mean the bit that is me inmy dressing gown. Yeah. Struggling to speak! (both laugh)
Hannah
yeah, it's that fine balance, isn't it?
Katya
Lately, I've done something. And I can't decide if it's good or bad. But last week, I missed two meetings because I was too sick to join. But reaching out to someone senior and saying, it's not a good day for me. I'll 100% join the call if you need me. But if I'm not needed on this, do you mind if I miss it? That was really terrifying. And I was just waiting for a response of: 'You're not taking this seriously.' Or 'maybe you need to go back to OH and take more time off'. But yeah, and then part of me was like, 'well done. Katya'. Yeah. You said what you needed. And they were lovely, as you knew they would be. And you were then able to do the whole day's work. But I still have that Gremlin who says 'they're probably not going to invite you to the next meeting. Or when they're thinking about promotions, Why would they promote you because you're unreliable?' Yeah. whoever's listening is like 'Jeez! You have a dark gremlin!
Hannah
Yeah. Just a chatty one.
Katya
do you want to take a 10 minute break?
Hannah
Yes. Yep.
Hannah
(Hangs up)
Hannah
Hey,
Katya
Hey! (sounds kind of vague), I'm having a really weird long COVID day I literally just walked into a wall. And I've been here for a year and a half. So it's not like who put that there? the walls always been there!
Hannah
Oh, my God. (laughing)
Hannah
Are you okay to keep going?
Katya
Yeah, I am, I just thought of something I really wanted to say.
Hannah
Yeah, go for it.
Hannah
Okay. I think it's really important to say that the way that my work handles my long COVID has made of me a loyal employee; offering me time off work without sending me emails or anything like that. The kindness of my colleagues. I was saying to my dad the other day, why would I leave? People with long COVID are still valuable workers. And yeah, and like the generosity they've given to me has just inspired a really strong sense of loyalty towards my team and my company,
Hannah
Definitely, that iit's better for employers in the long term to be generous and be kind and invest time into the, into their workforce. Definitely. Because, I mean, ultimately, this is one of the big problems with the NHS is they haven't got the money and the resources to support employees when the chips are down. And I mean, you know, people are leaving their professions and they're struggling to hire, relying on bank staff and paying through the nose for that and it's just a mess.
Katya
Yeah I have friends still in teaching who say the education system is facing the same resourcing challenges now… One of the things I wanted to mention for me is that now one of the barriers for me returning to work is navigating the office. And people don’t think anything of it. But it’s like fine I can get a cab to the building but how do I then walk to the canteen and the toilets and back. Because my long covid is so bad walking is not something I can do indefinitely, and if I use up my beans in the middle of the day, it doesn’t matter if I’m in the canteen or an inconvenient place, I will have to sit down.
Hannah
those short trips, those little short walks between areas of your workplace, they really add up, and they feel really long. When you've got long COVID.
Katya
It's the gap between the seats. Yeah,
Katya
Should we go to how does long COVID affect your feelings around work, like your emotional weather?
Hannah
One thing I've kind of learned from having long COVID Is that I use my energy just as much for social interaction, and then emotional regulation, as much as I use it for physical activity.
Katya
Oh, yeah. True.
Hannah
When I am really tired at work, just facing people and interacting with people is really tiring. But then also my ability to manage my emotions, is not so great, either. Like I feel a couple of times where I've felt maybe overwhelmed by my fatigue, or maybe a bit upset about something that's happened at work. I just feel like I'm way more likely to well up, or I'm way more likely to just have a much stronger physical response to the stress that I'm feeling. And I just, I just feel like, yeah, I think I'm putting it down to my ability to like, monitor and then regulate my emotional responses to things. It's just not there. So I feel like my emotions just kind of burst through my walls, where I'm like, Oh, my God, like I would never have, I would never have felt this out of control of my emotional responses to things in the past.
Katya
I have the same thing. Yeah, when I get tired, , I've had moments where I've cried in front of my boss. And it's that sense of, Well, no one else is crying at work! 'I know, you're telling me that it's okay. Because you're a lovely person. But no one else is crying. This really is just me!' I actually have a safety buddy. There's a guy at work, w we're such good friends. And yesterday, I knew I was in for crying day. So I called him in the morning to get it out of the way. And he was kind of worried afterwards. But I was just like, No, it's okay. I just knew I was going to cry. and you're a safe space. Now I can have a call with someone who doesn't know me like that. (both laugh)
Hannah
that's really lucky that you have someone like that.
Katya
Yeah, I am. I'm so lucky. But it's also like, I'm very aware of the cliche of the hysterical woman. I'm uncomfortable with how easily I cry these days.
Hannah
Yeah, I feel that same self consciousness of fulfilling a stereotype, especially as a young woman as well. I just feel like it makes me feel like I'm a teenager.
Katya
Yeah like i'm the little girl crying at the end of this meeting
Hannah
And also, because I feel that time pressure where it's like, okay, I'm having a little cry, I'm in the toilet having a cry, but I need to get back to work. I need to tidy myself up and kind of get a hold of myself quickly. So there's that sense of pressure. Yeah, but it's hard when you have so little control over your physical response to things, which is what I feel a lot of the time.
Katya
Because the faces I see at work arepretty much consistently, either super focused on solving a problem, or happy and laughing. So I feel a bit of a sore thumb when I am falling apart
Hannah
Yeah, yeah. Just kind of presenting a different face at work that I think people aren't maybe used to seeing that much
Katya
Yeah, because I can see why you need to have a professional behavior. Because the thing with work is, it's a job and the job needs to get done.. So that idea of bringing your whole self to work, I don't even think it's true. I swing between the two, right of like, I need to work. So I need to keep my job because I need the money. What are they paying me for? They're paying me to work. So how can I go to work and cancel meetings? Or be ineffective?
Hannah
I, I spoke to my therapist about sort of similar stuff relating to this, I've started therapy, by the way, like recently.
Katya
Oh well done.
Hannah
Yeah, she kind of sent me a document about boundaries. And what this document about boundaries was saying was that you have one end of the spectrum where you don't really have boundaries, and you may be overshare. But then there's the other end of the spectrum where you don't share at all. And, then kind of the place where you have that just right is somewhere in the middle of that. So I think part of being someone in the working world is like finding the balance. And that's really hard between those two extremes. And I do think where that balance lies is going to depend on the particular job you do and the relationships you have with your colleagues. And you're standing within, like your your seniority and who you're kind of showing that extra vulnerability to? I know, it's so complicated.
Katya
I think that is the really tricky thing, maintaining the boundaries - because you need to respect them for other people as well. Like, my manager needs to manage me and my work. They are not responsible for managing my long COVID. I was talking to my dad about this the other day. And my dad said, as a manager, what I really don't want to receive is a problem. It's far easier to receive a request. Yeah, so the request would be, hey, I'm finding this too much. Do you mind if I cut back on this? That is much easier to deal with. Because it's like, oh, well, I can have a look at that. And I can do something about this. Whereas if if you just sit down and give me all of your problems... What what do I do with that?
Hannah
Yeah, that's so true. I definitely think that actually summarizes quite well. The interactions I've had in the workplace with senior people that have gone well and haven't gone well around health,
Katya
I agree, actually. Yeah. But then knowing what you want and asking for itt is really, really hard. To go to that meeting and say, These are my challenges, to help me I need this.
Hannah
Yeah. Yeah, I think. And it's hard, I think, especially when you're in a place where you're really ill. And it is, yeah, it's hard to know what you need. You just feel you're basically just saying like someone helped me. And like, you don't really know how to help yourself or , what, what manageable workload looks like for you at that point.
Katya
Also, because it changes from day to day. Manageable workload on Monday is very different to manageable workload on Friday.
Hannah
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Do you have anything that helps you with work? And also, how are you feeling and do you need to stop?
Hannah
I'm doing okay, I'm okay.
Katya
Do you have anything else you want to add to the conversation on work?
Hannah
I don't think so. I think I'm struggling to think of things that I do that, that helps me that i could give to other people as advice.
Katya
I guess I just want to say also, like, we're not giving advice. We're just talking about this.
Hannah
Yeah.
Katya
The general tips for managing long covid will help you manage long covid at work. So I just want to point people to our second episode on self help (so many of those strategies, the bits about pacing and for me the non-sleep deep rest) help get me through work. And our website links to useful resources like a blog on pacing that you put in Hannah and the non-sleep deep exercise that I do in the mornings and afternoons. I do it every 1.5/2 hours while I’m working and it keeps my stress levels down and helps me to do a days work without exacerbating my illness or it makes it more feasible than it would be if I was just trying to rush through it.
Hannah
Yeah I agree with all of that and if people aren’t already I would recommend joining a union, I have put a link on our resources page to Information on Employment Rights and a link to Unisons website. I just found it comforting to read about the support unions can give you and what they have to say about other people’s experiences of long covid. It’s one of those things where if you are feeling alone or isolated or unsure around what your rights are there are places you can go and people you can talk to.
Katya
When I was a school teacher the union was so important as a mediator between yourself and management. I didn’t have to rely on the union but I had close friends who did. One was accused of something by a student and this teacher had done nothing wrong and the union was able to create the safe space, mediate conversations and ensure the teacher was never alone with management. They always had someone on their side for those conversations. So I can imagine how in a time of illness when you’re having to fight to get the time and help you need someone on your side for that.
Hannah
Especially when you’re in a place of illness you don’t have the beans to do your job how are you supposed to have the beans to fight for yourself as well. Trying to explain what you need when you’re feeling super brain foggy and shaking with exhaustion
Katya
Yeah and you’re terrified you will lose your job! So yeah, that second episode and the resources page on our website. And we’re trying to grow our resources so if you have anything that helped you with this, please do let us know.
Hannah
I would be so interested to hear people's experiences of working in different environments. And yeah, maybe some of the similarities they might have noticed or the differences to our stories.
Katya
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Actually. That's something I'm finding with diving into social media. Long COVID is so different for everyone.
Katya
Should we stop there then, Hannah?
Hannah
Yeah, I'm happy to stop there.
Katya
Yeah, I feel like we have a lot of good stuff.
Hannah
We got a lot of good stuff. We've covered loads of ground; I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Katya
We'd like to thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation.
Hannah
If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review and recommend us to a friend. Send your questions and comments to bounded energy@gmail.com Reach out to us on social media at bounded energy.
